In this interview with Supertrends, Sarah discusses the various methods of hydrogen production, the advantages and challenges of offshore hydrogen production, innovations in alkaline electrolysis technology, and the environmental and economic benefits of moving to green hydrogen.

Interview Transcript

Supertrends: Welcome to Supertrends interviews. Today, my guest is Sarah Groot Shapel. Sarah has a master's degree in physics and nanotechnology and is the founder and CEO of a startup called Nordic Hydrogen. Hello, Sarah.

Sarah Groot Shapel: Hi, nice to be here.

Supertrends: Maybe we could start by explaining what you do at Nordic Hydrogen.

SGS: Yes, of course. What we're doing is working long-term to move the production of hydrogen offshore, as we did 30 years ago with wind turbines. We took them from onshore to offshore, and right now and over the next 20 years, more and more wind energy is going to be generated offshore. So, we want to move the production of hydrogen to where the electricity is being generated. This makes the value chain easier and cheaper, and therefore, we're targeting the offshore production of hydrogen.

Supertrends: And you focus on green hydrogen, right? Could you explain to us the difference between green hydrogen and blue hydrogen? Are there also other colors of hydrogen?

SGS: Yes, there are different colors of hydrogen. First of all, I must emphasize that there's no difference in the chemical quality or properties of the different colors of hydrogen. Hydrogen is hydrogen. When we say pink, blue, grey, or green, it refers to the way we've produced the hydrogen.

When you talk about the hydrogen we use today, it's produced by fossil fuels, which we label as grey or brown hydrogen, depending on minor details.

Then we have blue hydrogen. We produce it also with fossil fuels, but then we use some carbon capture methods and lower the CO2 emissions in this way. So we produce it the same way, but capture some of the resulting carbon emissions. So that's the difference between the blue hydrogen and the grey, brown hydrogen.

Now what we're working on is green hydrogen. This is what I find really interesting. We produce it in a completely different way. We take water; we make it electrically conductive. Then we put electricity, green electricity, into the water, and then we split the water into atoms so that we have hydrogen and oxygen. Water is H2O, and therefore when we split it into atoms, we have hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen can be then stored and labeled green hydrogen.

Supertrends: So, green hydrogen is the most eco-friendly type?

SGS: Absolutely. With blue hydrogen, we still have the same emissions, but we just hide them. With green hydrogen, we use sustainable electricity to produce hydrogen without any emissions, resulting in pure, green, zero-emission hydrogen.

Supertrends: I have seen that the method you use to produce green hydrogen is alkaline electrolysis. Are there any other methods to produce green hydrogen?

SGS: Yes, there are other methods. Alkaline electrolysis is the most commercially mature technology. We also have PEM (proton exchange membrane) electrolyzers and SOEC (solid oxide electrolyzer cell) electrolyzers. All three methods split the water with electricity but each has unique qualities. Alkaline and PEM fall under low-temperature electrolyzers, while SOEC operates at higher temperatures, each having its pros and cons.

Supertrends: Why did you choose alkaline electrolysis for Nordic Hydrogen?

SGS: First of all, we wanted a mature technology that we could improve upon. That left us with PEM and alkaline electrolyzers. The issue with PEM is that it's very dependent on rare earth metals. It's dependent on platinum and even more so on iridium, which is rarer than platinum. Most people aren't even aware of iridium. So, although we can make PEM electrolyzers right now, in 10 years, or even sooner, we might run out of metals to produce PEM electrolyzers. Therefore, PEM was quite uninteresting to us because we want to make hydrogen production sustainable. This means not only using green electricity but also considering the production of our technology. We didn't want to depend on mining rare earth metals, which are found in specific locations and are subject to political changes.

Alkaline electrolyzers, on the other hand, use more available materials. While they are also dependent on copper and nickel, these are the most exotic materials used in our technology.

Supertrends: So it guarantees you more independence?

SGS: Absolutely, yes.

Supertrends: I imagine you’re not the only one working with alkaline electrolysis. Have you made any improvements to this method?

SGS: When people look at the offshore production of hydrogen right now, they usually focus on PEM electrolyzers because they have a smaller footprint and are lighter. This means you can produce more hydrogen relative to the weight of your system, which is crucial for offshore applications. So, how could we match this with alkaline electrolyzers, which are our core technology?

We've designed and developed an alkaline electrolyzer stack that is smaller in footprint and significantly lighter than our competitors’. We actually have a 40% reduction in footprint size and a 30% reduction in weight, which is incredibly important for offshore installations. Offshore systems are more challenging to install due to the difficult foundations and overall complexity. Because our technology is smaller and lighter, we can explore floating foundations and other innovative ways to incorporate it. This is where we have a unique advantage.

Another benefit of PEM electrolyzers is their ability to ramp up and ramp down more easily, which is important given the intermittent nature of renewable electricity. We are developing methods to match this capability, and this is likely to be our next patent. This will enable us to ramp up and ramp down our units comparable to PEM electrolyzers.

Supertrends: What other innovations are you working on right now?

SGS: We are working on a few different parameters right now. Of course, we continue to develop, test, and design our stack. This is our core technology, and we already have a patent pending on it. This development is an iterative process where we test, then go back and forth to refine our approach.

We are also working on two other main things. One is how to accommodate the intermittent nature of electricity. We are investigating how we can ramp up and ramp down our alkaline electrolyzers without damaging the electrodes.

Additionally, we are looking at improving the efficiency of our actual surfaces. This involves working on materials and surface enhancements.

Supertrends: It sounds like there are quite a few challenges in green hydrogen.

SGS: Yes, producing small amounts of green hydrogen is easy. The challenge lies in producing it in large volumes as efficiently as possible. Our job is to improve both the amount and efficiency of hydrogen production while maintaining a working unit.

Supertrends: So, the efficiency challenge might be a barrier to wider adoption. Are there other challenges, such as regulatory approval or public acceptance?

SGS: I wouldn't want an electrolyzer in my backyard. So, of course, there are some things that need to be in order. I also think, as always, it's very important to incorporate some type of nature into this. Here in Denmark, we have these huge solar fields, and they are not beautiful. Wind turbines are not beautiful either. Public acceptance of this is crucial.

If we say we need to add electrolyzers to the landscape, I think people will be a little bit unsatisfied with that. Just as with wind turbines, there are safety zones and other considerations, and it will be the same with electrolyzers. That's why we are really trying to put this technology offshore. We accommodate many concerns by moving this technology to the ocean. There is more space, fewer people will see it, and we already have a lot of infrastructure out there because of offshore wind turbines.

Supertrends: You focus on wind energy, but could your technology be used with other types of renewable energy?

SGS: Yes, 100%. The reason I focus a lot on wind energy is because that's what we're quite good at here in Denmark. It's what I grew up with, you know. So, this is where we find good collaborators and ways to integrate different things. Wind energy is probably where we'll start. But you're right, electricity is electricity, whether it's solar, wave, other water energies, or from the grid, which is typically a mix. When we target our technology, we have wind turbines in mind because that's what we're most exposed to here in Denmark.

Supertrends: In which sectors or industries do you think your technology could have the most significant impact?

SGS: There are a few different sectors, which vary from country to country. In Denmark, where we already use hydrogen, it's crucial to replace it with green hydrogen. Additionally, there are various processes like the production of e-fuels, e-methanol, and e-ammonia where hydrogen serves as a chemical. Using hydrogen in chemical applications provides significant value.

Globally, heavy transportation can benefit from hydrogen as a fuel.

However, when considering hydrogen as traditional energy storage, it isn't as efficient as batteries. Converting electricity to hydrogen and back incurs higher losses than using batteries directly. People hope hydrogen can solve energy storage issues, but it may need more time. In the short term, focusing on hydrogen as a chemical is our main target.

Supertrends: How do you envision the green hydrogen market in the next 10 years and where will Nordic Hydrogen be?

SGS: In 10 years, we will be producing hydrogen offshore. We will have pipes offshore, similar to the gas pipes currently connecting different countries across Europe. We want the same for hydrogen pipes, both onshore and offshore. Offshore is where we envision ourselves. We will be situated next to the floating foundations of wind turbines, with a robust hydrogen pipeline connecting directly to the shore. From there, it can be distributed throughout Europe where it's needed.

Supertrends: How would you convince someone to invest in green hydrogen or your company?

SGS: I mean, it's the right thing to do. We've found a way here to truly make a difference for the environment, for the future, for our children and grandchildren. And when I'm approaching investors, I also tell them that it's a very valuable business case even without public support for hydrogen production. It's very intriguing looking at the technology, interesting in terms of decarbonizing the environment. But it's also a really good business case where you can tick a lot of boxes. It's a good investment and you're truly doing something good with your investments.

Supertrends: Is there anything we didn’t touch on that you find important regarding green hydrogen? Any misconceptions you’d like to address?

SGS: I think I've talked about this a bit because a lot of people come to me and say, 'Oh, but hydrogen is so inefficient.' It's true, of course. We have losses in the conversion process from electricity to hydrogen and back to electricity. So, yes, compared to using batteries directly, hydrogen can be inefficient in that context. I wouldn't say it's inefficient, period. But it's inefficient compared to using batteries. However, where hydrogen really excels is in heavy transportation, as a chemical and in applications such as e-fuels and sustainable aviation fuels. These are areas where hydrogen is uniquely suited.

That's my most important message here. Yes, hydrogen can be inefficient if not used wisely. We need to leverage each technology efficiently. So, let's not use hydrogen where it's inefficient. Let's use electricity and batteries directly where they excel and reserve hydrogen for applications where it provides unique benefits.

Supertrends: That's a good point. I believe people usually think of green hydrogen for electricity production, but it has so many other better uses.

SGS: The two primary sectors where hydrogen is currently used are in refineries and for ammonia production in fertilizers. These are areas where — I wanted to say easy, but nothing is easy here. However, these are areas where replacing hydrogen with sustainable alternatives would be somewhat more straightforward. That's where we could start.

Supertrends: Thank you, Sarah, for this insightful discussion. We had the opportunity to learn a lot.

SGS: My pleasure, thank you for having me.

The interview, conducted on 5 June 2024, was part of Supertrends' “Interviews with Experts” series. Please note that the transcript may have been lightly edited for editorial reasons.

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